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English subtitles by Crutch. Revisions,
corrections and proofreading by steveyt.
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86 SPRINGS
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{\an8}When you run along like this...
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{\an8}up there, see?
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{\an8}Just like this...
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{\an8}the wall here.
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{\an8}And you take the
goddamn grenade...
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{\an8}and you throw it.
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{\an8}War is so insane...
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{\an8}organized insanity...
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{\an8}but it's so insane...
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{\an8}It's impossible for anybody...
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{\an8}to appreciate the word insanity
unless you are in combat.
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{\an8}In war...
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{\an8}we actually got used...
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{\an8}to seeing violence...
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{\an8}horrible things...
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{\an8}but we never thought that we would ever
come across anything...
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00:02:05,719 --> 00:02:08,282
{\an8}that would make
that whole nightmare...
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00:02:09,361 --> 00:02:11,561
{\an8}seem almost a holiday...
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{\an8}except at Falkenau.
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The Fuller film which is often shown
at the moment, on television on TCM,
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The Big Red One,
or something like that,
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where you see the American G.I.s...
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like that...
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that's Fuller, but...
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they keep their cigars when they
open the gas chamber doors
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or stuff like that. At one point,
they don't know anymore...
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00:03:01,873 --> 00:03:05,019
they believe that...
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00:03:05,879 --> 00:03:09,661
that changed in the middle
of the last century...
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00:03:09,712 --> 00:03:11,149
slowly, or we believe that...
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00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:16,506
I myself started like that, where
we believed that what we film...
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is what we want to film,
I don't know how.
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00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:23,955
What they wanted to film, that merged...
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They made no distinction between
speaking and filming, in that way.
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And then...
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00:03:34,964 --> 00:03:41,418
But it's true,
Eisenstein is celebrated as...
38
00:03:41,469 --> 00:03:47,379
It's very different when
you look at Que viva Mexico.
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00:03:47,896 --> 00:03:51,329
I don't know if there was any sound
at the time, I don't think so.
40
00:03:51,380 --> 00:03:55,379
I don't think so because it
was filmed before...
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00:03:55,752 --> 00:04:01,283
And the act of saying, for me,
brought me to Goodbye to Language,
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00:04:01,334 --> 00:04:06,848
where people believe that
we have a common language,
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or that there is a language,
and that if we still talk...
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today, even, I heard: "such and such
remarks are unacceptable",
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things like that, but it's not...
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00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:26,830
For us, at the time,
the 4 or 5 of the New Wave,
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there was no difference between...
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It was like the same family,
where they lived.
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00:04:37,832 --> 00:04:41,380
I often described it as: the same house.
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The living room was fiction,
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and then above, or in the cellar,
was documentary.
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But it was still the same,
it was still the same house.
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At first, I remember
documentary films about...
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00:04:57,162 --> 00:04:59,288
even the commentary with it...
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I remember a [Arne] Sucksdorff film,
which I really...
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00:05:03,242 --> 00:05:05,115
I'd liked some of his films,
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00:05:05,166 --> 00:05:08,734
one of his first films which
talked about Sweden,
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about a traffic accident, and
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he said: "young blood is spilling
onto the streets".
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There, the commentary was still...
The text went...
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It wasn't...
It wasn't laid over...
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It wasn't over...
over the image.
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Current cinema, current TV,
yes, that's a common language,
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but it's distorted.
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It's like a child...
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Even when he grows up,
because of the way he was raised,
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how he absorbed everything
that exists today,
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00:06:02,583 --> 00:06:05,583
how he received it,
so he's never able to...
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never been...
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00:06:07,705 --> 00:06:11,375
never been able to speak
his own language, if I dare say so.
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00:06:11,426 --> 00:06:15,271
Even as a people, it's like that.
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Hannah Arendt remarked that
whatever changed for her,
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whatever happened,
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the German language
was her only language,
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00:06:28,529 --> 00:06:33,100
even though she'd been American
for a long time, but that was that.
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So there was something
that led me to...
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to...
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to language and to my belief,
I believe that...
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It's an old book that I discovered,
I don't know where,
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and which says at the end...
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[On Language, Fritz Mauthner]
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Evidently, there are some remains of a
religious, Protestant side on my part...
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00:07:03,776 --> 00:07:08,569
"We would accomplish the redemptive act"
—there, the idea of redemption—
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"if we could lead criticism
to the point of the voluntary,
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00:07:14,595 --> 00:07:19,369
wisely despairing death
of our spoken thought."
86
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So, what you do,
and what I also do a little bit,
87
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at any rate,
while I'm reading Charlie Hebdo,
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"but we have to conduct criticism
with words,
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which only have the appearance of life."
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What saves Charlie Hebdo
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is that there is the redemption of
caricatures, of images,
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which others don't have.
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00:07:45,343 --> 00:07:49,038
Not Le Canard Enchainé [satirical paper],
not Le Monde [centrist paper]...
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00:07:49,089 --> 00:07:52,295
sometimes in Liberation
[center-left newspaper].
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00:07:57,839 --> 00:07:59,380
So, war...
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00:08:01,467 --> 00:08:03,380
It should be beyond words.
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00:08:04,586 --> 00:08:07,720
And what I can't stand anymore,
even if I watch,
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00:08:07,864 --> 00:08:11,062
I think out of nostalgia,
or something like that, since it was...
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00:08:11,113 --> 00:08:14,044
We really liked American cinema
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00:08:14,095 --> 00:08:17,349
compared to French cinema of the time,
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and then little by little,
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we see these American war films
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where the soldiers never stop
talking to each other,
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saying very, very few things,
always the same things.
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I'm often surprised by that.
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The Raoul Walsh film,
one of Raoul Walsh's films I like best,
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that I still appreciate,
is the one that takes place...
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which is set entirely
in cafes and residential houses.
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What was it called? Battle Cry!
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That's the best one!
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[Nicole Brenez]:What I always...
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00:10:20,726 --> 00:10:24,821
found marvelous in your path
as an artist, is that you
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00:10:24,919 --> 00:10:29,781
always, like a duty, talked about
wars that you were contemporary to.
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The Algerian War,
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- the Vietnam War...
- Yes, it came along, step by step...
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Step by step, with my education...
No, even so...
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living mostly in a neutral country
during the war, since 1941.
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00:10:49,923 --> 00:10:55,275
But even then,
we were still going to France,
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00:10:55,326 --> 00:10:58,778
there were still family visits
in France.
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I discovered the German army
while in vacation in Brittany,
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some German soldiers, they were bathing.
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Then—and here I was probably influenced—
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I considered myself an anarchist
—which for me meant left-wing—
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but a right-wing anarchist.
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Which meant that I was
reprimanded everywhere.
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But that was the idea, I think
unconsciously, of this contradiction.
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And like that, I followed...
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00:11:49,314 --> 00:11:57,152
I followed a lot, as a teenager...
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the history of Germany,
it also came from reading,
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00:12:04,839 --> 00:12:07,752
from Siegfried et Le Limousin
[Jean Giraudoux's book],
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and things from my father
who had that education,
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00:12:13,811 --> 00:12:18,609
who could teach medicine
in Germany and England.
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And then the fact that at the cinema
in Nyon, which still exists,
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but in a different form,
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it showed all the films,
it showed American films,
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00:12:30,108 --> 00:12:37,895
I saw In Which We Serve,
I saw Italian comedies, Scampolo, etc.
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00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:42,955
I saw German films and French films.
No Russian films, of course.
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So it kind of stuck around.
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00:12:47,847 --> 00:12:51,529
And then the idea
—at the time, it didn't exist for me—
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00:12:51,580 --> 00:12:56,873
but little by little, the idea came,
under the influence of philosophy,
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00:12:58,014 --> 00:13:04,267
of a little reading
of Merleau-Ponty or Sartre,
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00:13:04,411 --> 00:13:07,978
then later of Hegel or others,
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00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:14,568
the idea of dialectics,
of the struggle of opposites...
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00:13:14,619 --> 00:13:20,695
But now, I've kinda got rid of it,
because I see that it was also...
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00:13:21,137 --> 00:13:24,271
There's a lot of BFMTV
[right-wing French TV channel] in there,
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in the philosophy.
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00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:34,231
Just recently, I was watching
an old film about Rommel.
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00:13:35,109 --> 00:13:39,147
And, well, he got beaten by Montgomery,
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00:13:39,467 --> 00:13:43,432
but suddenly I paid attention
at one point, when he was...
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00:13:44,946 --> 00:13:50,919
After the D-Day landings, when he
returned to Germany, he was shot,
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00:13:50,974 --> 00:13:54,395
machine-gunned by a plane on the road,
he was wounded.
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Well, the story goes on,
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but the village he was passing by
at that time was called Montgomery.
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So, for me, it's these things
that interest me, things like that.
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It's not... It's...
Well, the paths of chance.
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00:14:19,369 --> 00:14:21,845
What struck me
—"Something that struck me"—
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it's an expression we often hear,
and still I use it, but...
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What struck me—it would be fun
to see it literally, the strike itself—
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what struck me was that Gaullist France
in London
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didn't make films.
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On the ground, the resistance fighters
did what they could.
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And it's always the same films,
already, by activists.
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We see people walking
in the forest, etc.
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There was only one relatively resistant
filmmaker in France: Henri Calef,
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who didn't make very good films
afterwards.
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But he's the only one,
or one of the rare ones, if you like,
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compared to all the others
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who shot at Continental.
[Collaborationist studio during the war]
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But these are things
that I learned on my own afterwards,
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and always through cinema.
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Everything has been said,
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unless the words change their meaning
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and the meanings their words.
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Doesn't it make sense that someone
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who generally lives
in a state of suffering
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needs a different sort of religion
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to someone who generally lives
on the other side of that suffering?
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Before us, there was nothing here.
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No one...
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We are totally alone here.
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We are unique.
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Wretchedly unique.
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The meaning of words
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and of expressions
is no longer understood.
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An isolated word,
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00:16:44,262 --> 00:16:48,150
or an isolated detail in a drawing
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can be understood.
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But the meaning of the whole is lost.
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Once we know the number one,
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we think we know the number two
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because one plus one equals two.
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We forget that first,
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we must know the meaning of plus.
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The acts of man
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through the centuries
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will gradually
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logically destroy them.
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00:17:47,928 --> 00:17:52,342
I, Alpha 60,
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00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:59,137
I am merely the logical means
of this destruction.
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00:17:59,188 --> 00:18:01,041
[Thoret]: Why did you reference BFMTV?
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00:18:01,092 --> 00:18:06,508
It's because I watch that
rather than France 2,
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00:18:06,559 --> 00:18:09,432
if I want to get some news.
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00:18:09,727 --> 00:18:17,166
And I'm always amazed how they
manage to chatter without getting bored.
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00:18:17,217 --> 00:18:20,328
Then they go to dinner and sure enough,
they carry on.
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00:18:20,379 --> 00:18:22,499
And another team takes over.
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00:18:22,646 --> 00:18:24,363
That's it, that's all.
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00:18:24,872 --> 00:18:27,956
And then they claim to be the news.
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00:18:29,297 --> 00:18:32,000
They're no Santiago Álvarez
[Cuban documentary director].
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00:18:38,861 --> 00:18:43,833
79 SPRINGS
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DIEN BIEN PHU'S VICTORY
OVER FRENCH COLONIAL RULE
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00:21:23,385 --> 00:21:29,118
Let's go back: you talked about
these German soldiers bathing,
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00:21:29,169 --> 00:21:31,464
- and the cinema in Nyon...
- No one talked about it,
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00:21:31,515 --> 00:21:35,684
but my family... some protested,
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00:21:35,812 --> 00:21:41,764
some were more collaborationist
than others,
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00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,502
some less so... I don't know...
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00:21:46,970 --> 00:21:53,112
And I discovered cinema during the Vichy
regime [France's occupation: 1940-1944],
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00:21:53,890 --> 00:21:58,168
as a pre-adolescent.
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00:21:58,573 --> 00:22:02,900
I was traveling between
France and Switzerland,
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00:22:02,951 --> 00:22:07,215
that was complicated, I was staying
with friends of my family.
220
00:22:07,607 --> 00:22:14,614
And that friend,
a 50 or 60 year old woman,
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00:22:14,665 --> 00:22:18,483
went to the movies every day. Every day.
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00:22:18,534 --> 00:22:21,725
And I saw all those
movies from that period,
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00:22:21,776 --> 00:22:26,349
and I still feel a bit nostalgic
for these movies,
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00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:32,001
with a young Bernard Blier, etc.
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So, all that gets stored away,
we don't talk about it,
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00:22:42,157 --> 00:22:44,561
then later it comes back.
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00:22:44,660 --> 00:22:48,302
Old age is really
one of the most interesting ages,
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00:22:48,353 --> 00:22:52,830
and it's absolutely not treated...
But I don't see how it could be...
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00:22:52,881 --> 00:22:56,351
It can only be mistreated.
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00:22:56,820 --> 00:23:00,621
One of Simone de Beauvoir's finest books
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00:23:00,749 --> 00:23:04,589
is her book on old age,
more so than the others.
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00:23:05,646 --> 00:23:11,056
Why is it that from '40 to '45
there was no resistance cinema?
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00:23:11,425 --> 00:23:15,978
There were resistance films.
Left and right, here and there,
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00:23:16,260 --> 00:23:19,000
but the only film,
in the true sense,
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00:23:19,104 --> 00:23:22,192
to resist America's occupation
of cinema
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00:23:22,272 --> 00:23:26,756
and a uniform way of making films
was an Italian film.
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00:23:27,380 --> 00:23:29,016
It is not by chance.
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00:23:29,238 --> 00:23:31,595
Italy fought the least.
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00:23:31,966 --> 00:23:34,955
It suffered greatly.
But having betrayed twice,
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00:23:35,006 --> 00:23:37,600
it suffered to have lost its identity.
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00:23:38,140 --> 00:23:40,784
It found it with Rome, Open City
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00:23:41,086 --> 00:23:44,269
because the film was made
by men without uniform.
243
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:45,724
It was the only time.
244
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:47,640
The Russians made martyr films.
245
00:23:48,007 --> 00:23:50,483
The Americans made commercials.
246
00:23:50,850 --> 00:23:54,010
The English made
what they always make: Nothing.
247
00:23:54,227 --> 00:23:56,427
The Germans had no cinema.
248
00:23:57,649 --> 00:23:59,171
No more cinema.
249
00:24:00,544 --> 00:24:04,246
And the French made Sylvia And The Ghost
[Claude Autant-Lara, 1946].
250
00:24:04,297 --> 00:24:06,627
The Poles made two expiatory films,
251
00:24:06,678 --> 00:24:08,812
The Passenger and The Last Step,
252
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,316
and a nostalgic film, Kanal.
253
00:24:12,140 --> 00:24:14,840
Then they welcomed Spielberg.
254
00:24:15,008 --> 00:24:18,971
"Never again" became
"It's better than nothing".
255
00:24:20,672 --> 00:24:22,516
But with Rome, Open City,
256
00:24:22,651 --> 00:24:26,865
Italy regained the right for a nation
to look itself in the eye.
257
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:31,080
Then came the crop
of great Italian cinema.
258
00:24:31,275 --> 00:24:34,075
But there is something strange.
259
00:24:34,471 --> 00:24:37,415
How did Italian cinema
become so great
260
00:24:37,518 --> 00:24:41,560
if no one—Rossellini, Visconti,
Antonioni, Fellini—
261
00:24:41,773 --> 00:24:44,152
recorded sound with image?
262
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,012
Only one answer.
263
00:24:46,820 --> 00:24:48,591
The language of Ovid and Virgil,
264
00:24:48,642 --> 00:24:52,427
of Dante and Leopardi,
made its way into the image.
265
00:24:53,180 --> 00:24:56,912
War, since you're asking
how to film war,
266
00:24:57,178 --> 00:24:59,481
that's a question
I've never asked myself.
267
00:24:59,532 --> 00:25:00,888
I don't think I ever filmed it.
268
00:25:00,940 --> 00:25:07,374
Maybe a little bit in Palestine,
in sixty...
269
00:25:07,606 --> 00:25:10,515
What was it? Sixty... yes,
270
00:25:11,038 --> 00:25:15,412
1969, before Black September,
69 or 70.
271
00:25:15,634 --> 00:25:23,080
It was once, I was with Gorin, and he
absolutely wanted to witness operations.
272
00:25:24,942 --> 00:25:29,838
So Fatah took us close
to the lines.
273
00:25:34,006 --> 00:25:38,842
And we saw, we heard a few shots,
things like that,
274
00:25:38,893 --> 00:25:44,029
but there was a big old Iraqi soldier
drinking tea
275
00:25:44,226 --> 00:25:47,520
in the little bunker, or the trench.
276
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,689
And he said, or it was another one
afterwards, who said it:
277
00:25:53,832 --> 00:25:59,691
"We don't go out often because as soon
as we go out, the Israelis shoot at us".
278
00:26:05,858 --> 00:26:10,079
So, that's it. Afterward,
I put it as a background,
279
00:26:13,582 --> 00:26:15,500
as a background
280
00:26:17,231 --> 00:26:22,421
for the commercial relationship
between the images.
281
00:26:23,183 --> 00:26:28,241
Yes, war is something,
if it's not specifically...
282
00:26:28,292 --> 00:26:34,383
I wouldn't particularly want to go
to war, but it's a concept...
283
00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:42,615
I've always thought
of the civil war aspect
284
00:26:42,824 --> 00:26:48,839
—it seems to be the name for that—
whether it's in relationship stories,
285
00:26:48,943 --> 00:26:52,799
stories about commerce, or whatever.
286
00:26:58,016 --> 00:27:00,031
Why so thoughtful?
287
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:01,950
CONTEMPT
1963
288
00:27:01,975 --> 00:27:04,615
Because I'm thinking,
believe it or not.
289
00:27:06,980 --> 00:27:08,453
Surprised?
290
00:27:08,699 --> 00:27:09,930
No. What?
291
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,162
An idea.
292
00:27:13,332 --> 00:27:16,213
Come with me. I won't go alone.
293
00:27:16,297 --> 00:27:19,392
You've been acting funny
since we met that guy.
294
00:27:23,380 --> 00:27:25,517
I'm not funny.
295
00:27:30,571 --> 00:27:32,694
Why would you say that?
296
00:27:32,980 --> 00:27:34,210
Just because.
297
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:36,738
We were fine this morning.
298
00:27:37,180 --> 00:27:39,322
Now we're fighting over nothing.
299
00:27:40,791 --> 00:27:42,443
What's going on, baby?
300
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,047
I want to have fun.
301
00:27:44,580 --> 00:27:46,254
Nothing's going on, Paul.
302
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,574
I'm afraid I'll get bored there.
303
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:52,660
I'm not going.
304
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,140
I'm not going.
305
00:27:55,740 --> 00:27:56,740
I'm not going.
306
00:27:57,898 --> 00:27:58,898
I'm not going.
307
00:27:59,580 --> 00:28:00,580
I'm not going.
308
00:28:01,580 --> 00:28:02,580
I'm not going.
309
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,160
I'm not going.
310
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:05,680
I'm not going.
311
00:28:12,222 --> 00:28:14,960
Seen the house being built
across the way?
312
00:28:17,362 --> 00:28:18,456
It's awful.
313
00:28:20,340 --> 00:28:23,872
If you love me, just be quiet.
314
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,484
A husband has a right to know
why his wife's sulking.
315
00:28:37,815 --> 00:28:39,815
I'm sure it's about that girl.
316
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,080
Drop dead!
317
00:28:59,590 --> 00:29:00,694
Hello?
318
00:29:01,732 --> 00:29:02,859
Good afternoon.
319
00:29:03,607 --> 00:29:05,162
No, Camille isn't here.
320
00:29:07,743 --> 00:29:11,377
Was there ever a war film,
that made you aware
321
00:29:11,428 --> 00:29:14,343
perhaps of the reality,
or the truth of war, through a film,
322
00:29:14,394 --> 00:29:17,100
that you discovered as a child?
323
00:29:17,303 --> 00:29:21,779
That, I couldn't really say.
I'd have to look back over quite a lot.
324
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,421
And all these films
that I spoke to you about,
325
00:29:24,472 --> 00:29:28,003
that theater in Nyon,
which still exists.
326
00:29:29,066 --> 00:29:31,651
Oddly enough,
I saw In Which We Serve,
327
00:29:31,890 --> 00:29:35,024
one of David Lean's first films.
328
00:29:38,295 --> 00:29:40,488
I remember it, but I don't think...
329
00:29:40,539 --> 00:29:43,321
We didn't think to ourselves
that it was war.
330
00:29:43,372 --> 00:29:45,943
The Swiss don't think: this is war.
331
00:29:48,568 --> 00:29:54,024
They don't feel it. The French,
recently, have felt it a little.
332
00:29:54,905 --> 00:29:59,480
Even at the time,
the Algerian War was far away.
333
00:30:01,383 --> 00:30:03,356
So that came from...
334
00:30:05,372 --> 00:30:07,962
my personal side, a bit...
335
00:30:08,049 --> 00:30:13,835
anarchist, but only in terms of ideas,
if you like.
336
00:30:14,728 --> 00:30:16,153
But...
337
00:30:17,605 --> 00:30:22,915
It came from activism,
from going there rather than there.
338
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,088
And this stuff... we just don't film it.
339
00:30:27,746 --> 00:30:32,696
I would never have done
like René Vautier did, going to Algeria,
340
00:30:32,747 --> 00:30:37,516
or like Yves Boisset,
or Alain Delon in Lost Command.
341
00:30:39,187 --> 00:30:43,675
Things like that,
although that also contributes.
342
00:30:44,942 --> 00:30:47,322
But there remains this problem...
343
00:30:50,172 --> 00:30:57,568
Cinema wasn't meant
to be made like that.
344
00:30:58,700 --> 00:31:01,960
What does that mean?
What do you mean by that?
345
00:31:08,330 --> 00:31:12,717
- Cinema wasn't made to be like that?
- To become that.
346
00:31:12,841 --> 00:31:16,590
But it has become like that,
like many other things.
347
00:31:18,239 --> 00:31:23,801
I've always come after someone else,
even with the ladies, if I can say that.
348
00:31:23,973 --> 00:31:30,553
And so I became Rossellini's
second nephew, so to speak.
349
00:31:30,833 --> 00:31:36,237
And Rossellini had staged a play
by Beniamino Joppolo,
350
00:31:36,296 --> 00:31:40,120
in Spolète, called The Carabineers.
That was the initial screenplay.
351
00:31:40,993 --> 00:31:45,262
And I knew Jean Gruault,
352
00:31:45,302 --> 00:31:50,635
who worked with Roberto at that time.
353
00:31:51,143 --> 00:31:57,801
And I don't know why,
when it was necessary to make,
354
00:31:58,047 --> 00:32:03,364
I think, a second, no,
a third or fourth film,
355
00:32:03,896 --> 00:32:09,507
before Contempt, it happened like that.
356
00:32:09,634 --> 00:32:16,225
We're going to do... we're going
to take the opposite approach.
357
00:32:16,384 --> 00:32:19,368
It was about doing what isn't done.
358
00:32:20,667 --> 00:32:26,305
There were always paeans, heroes,
or victims, things like that.
359
00:32:26,392 --> 00:32:28,958
So let's do that.
360
00:32:31,211 --> 00:32:32,297
Let's do that.
361
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,280
At the time, there was just...
362
00:32:39,026 --> 00:32:43,113
I don't even know if Orly Airport
already existed at the time.
363
00:32:44,091 --> 00:32:45,987
But it was forest.
364
00:32:47,065 --> 00:32:50,927
And it was the beginnings
of the Southern Highway
365
00:32:50,978 --> 00:32:53,831
which was still just two lanes.
366
00:32:53,882 --> 00:32:59,067
And I remember it, every time
I take it again, I remember.
367
00:32:59,118 --> 00:33:00,309
It was very cold.
368
00:33:00,762 --> 00:33:02,640
And it was like that, and...
369
00:33:03,267 --> 00:33:07,207
there was a very theatrical edge to it.
370
00:33:07,258 --> 00:33:11,202
It came originally from the theater.
I was more connected...
371
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:17,480
I was also linked
with theater people,
372
00:33:18,687 --> 00:33:22,179
like [Antoine] Bourseiller,
or two or three others,
373
00:33:22,368 --> 00:33:28,288
and I've always greatly admired,
or loved, Antonin Artaud.
374
00:33:32,552 --> 00:33:36,487
Moreover, what's interesting
about The Carabineers is that,
375
00:33:36,638 --> 00:33:43,743
basically, you completely got rid
of the question of filming the war,
376
00:33:43,794 --> 00:33:46,784
that's to say that the fights,
the death...
377
00:33:46,835 --> 00:33:50,307
No, no, that didn't interest me.
No, I never...
378
00:33:50,493 --> 00:33:54,381
In fact, I've never asked myself
that question, even today.
379
00:33:55,528 --> 00:34:00,394
Even today. A little bit that time,
with Palestine.
380
00:34:00,445 --> 00:34:05,093
And then, we discovered,
well, at least I discovered,
381
00:34:05,458 --> 00:34:10,812
that we wanted to film it like others,
again.
382
00:34:10,863 --> 00:34:12,526
The film was phony.
383
00:34:13,455 --> 00:34:17,806
All the Palestinian films I've seen,
or other films
384
00:34:17,877 --> 00:34:23,022
by Eyal Sivan, or stuff like that,
they're phony.
385
00:34:23,585 --> 00:34:24,694
And there are...
386
00:34:25,170 --> 00:34:28,935
So we travelled a bit to Tunisia for
387
00:34:29,276 --> 00:34:31,896
the last part of the film
[The Image Book],
388
00:34:31,947 --> 00:34:39,379
where they have
quite a lively film community.
389
00:34:39,515 --> 00:34:42,149
And it's funny to see...
390
00:34:45,483 --> 00:34:51,564
how the production devices
remain stuck in the time of colonialism.
391
00:34:51,615 --> 00:34:54,523
Well, in France,
what remains is still like this,
392
00:34:54,574 --> 00:34:58,263
the production, the producer, all that.
393
00:34:58,314 --> 00:35:03,741
But in Tunisia, or other places...
394
00:35:03,868 --> 00:35:06,589
We discovered it in Mozambique,
395
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,681
when we were trying to do something
in Mozambique earlier.
396
00:35:09,732 --> 00:35:14,846
We had a young Black man
who was with us,
397
00:35:14,897 --> 00:35:18,804
who served as our assistant and guide.
398
00:35:18,856 --> 00:35:26,469
And then, suddenly
—Ruy Guerra too, was there at times—
399
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,306
well, there was a small school,
400
00:35:28,357 --> 00:35:32,616
the beginnings of a national center
for cinema,
401
00:35:32,667 --> 00:35:35,989
but in its early days,
because they were very poor.
402
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:43,151
And we were going out, filming,
classic stuff, an activist film,
403
00:35:43,413 --> 00:35:45,286
but which had a goal,
404
00:35:46,081 --> 00:35:49,280
to define for the government
of the time,
405
00:35:49,331 --> 00:35:53,631
whose Minister of the Interior
we knew through friends,
406
00:35:54,016 --> 00:35:57,462
who'd allocated us a very small sum
407
00:35:58,509 --> 00:36:02,086
to define the foundations
of a future television.
408
00:36:02,137 --> 00:36:06,609
Well, it ended up as RAI [Italian TV
channel], of course, and for us, that...
409
00:36:06,660 --> 00:36:11,141
Well, this young assistant,
whose name was... I've forgotten.
410
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,994
One day he was called back
and had to leave in a hurry,
411
00:36:15,654 --> 00:36:20,325
because Samora Machel, the president
at the time, was flying in.
412
00:36:20,609 --> 00:36:23,306
And he had to go film it.
413
00:36:24,208 --> 00:36:30,026
And we were a little surprised
and disappointed.
414
00:36:30,555 --> 00:36:33,502
Disappointed in ourselves too.
415
00:36:33,553 --> 00:36:38,026
Because it was filmed like TF1
or whatever television channel.
416
00:36:38,077 --> 00:36:40,878
He's getting out,
there's the red carpet...
417
00:36:41,139 --> 00:36:42,772
The same shots.
418
00:36:42,831 --> 00:36:47,347
He found them all, on his own,
without anyone telling him.
419
00:36:47,529 --> 00:36:49,457
He'd never filmed in his life,
420
00:36:49,508 --> 00:36:54,508
but we'd taught him how to use
our small cameras, small for those days.
421
00:36:54,955 --> 00:36:56,828
And he set himself up there.
422
00:36:57,019 --> 00:36:59,304
And in Tunisia, I found that again.
423
00:36:59,355 --> 00:37:03,603
Where they make a lot of films,
more or less nice ones.
424
00:37:04,020 --> 00:37:05,020
But...
425
00:37:05,944 --> 00:37:08,844
They do the same shots again.
426
00:37:10,381 --> 00:37:11,928
They do the same again.
427
00:37:12,548 --> 00:37:14,635
They do the same thing again...
428
00:37:15,644 --> 00:37:20,559
without anyone really teaching them
how to do it.
429
00:37:21,787 --> 00:37:23,860
If you see there, the...
430
00:37:23,940 --> 00:37:26,079
I took a photo of it,
which is in the screenplay.
431
00:37:26,130 --> 00:37:29,449
You have it at the beginning,
but you have it there for real.
432
00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:32,531
There's a shelf there
which is the screenplay.
433
00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:35,660
The screenplay is DVDs.
434
00:37:35,768 --> 00:37:39,160
Multiple DVDs on,
435
00:37:39,211 --> 00:37:43,446
one might say, certain given themes.
The notion of the remake,
436
00:37:43,791 --> 00:37:47,402
the notion of war,
437
00:37:47,532 --> 00:37:53,480
the notion of adventure,
trains, stations, and then after...
438
00:37:53,851 --> 00:37:55,253
And then there it is.
439
00:37:55,304 --> 00:38:02,857
And then, we try to follow...
Me, I'm incapable of inventing fiction,
440
00:38:03,083 --> 00:38:09,607
or then of realizing it with actors,
and so on.
441
00:38:10,386 --> 00:38:14,457
But still, I use someone else's fiction,
442
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,888
a novel by Albert Cossery
which takes place in Arabia,
443
00:38:19,020 --> 00:38:23,650
that I call the era of happy Arabia,
444
00:38:24,143 --> 00:38:30,801
as we called the Middle East
at the time.
445
00:38:31,539 --> 00:38:35,250
But I don't know yet how we'll do it,
446
00:38:35,542 --> 00:38:38,262
Above all,
there won't be any characters.
447
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:44,431
We'll see people, maybe,
from behind, that the novel talks about.
448
00:38:44,482 --> 00:38:51,398
So there, I use the commentary
he recites, and he tells a little story.
449
00:38:51,449 --> 00:38:57,425
A place where someone cooked up
a false revolution
450
00:38:57,695 --> 00:39:00,122
to avoid having a real one...
451
00:39:00,173 --> 00:39:02,234
I don't remember it very well
452
00:39:02,298 --> 00:39:07,377
because I haven't yet reread the book
carefully.
453
00:39:07,773 --> 00:39:15,249
And like in all these Cossery novels,
they like to relax, they don't do much,
454
00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:19,831
and above all they're blessed,
because they have no oil.
455
00:39:24,261 --> 00:39:28,134
- The concept of war?
- You have to look at the DVD titles.
456
00:39:30,140 --> 00:39:32,380
Where is it? Not there?
457
00:39:43,614 --> 00:39:46,632
SCREENPLAY DICTATING MISE-EN-SCÈNE
458
00:39:53,471 --> 00:39:55,649
I'll look on the shelf,
because here it's too small.
459
00:39:55,700 --> 00:40:01,782
Unless you... unless the relationship
between film and genre is reinvented.
460
00:40:01,833 --> 00:40:03,277
No, no, not at all.
461
00:40:03,380 --> 00:40:08,692
But they...
and Nicole [Brenez] also helped me,
462
00:40:08,867 --> 00:40:13,816
and provided loads of DVDs.
463
00:40:13,867 --> 00:40:17,595
And then there are those
I'd remembered myself.
464
00:40:17,646 --> 00:40:19,209
There you go, all that.
465
00:40:34,531 --> 00:40:38,583
There's that line in For Ever Mozart:
466
00:40:38,634 --> 00:40:41,772
"War is easy: it's sticking a piece
of metal in a piece of flesh"
467
00:40:41,824 --> 00:40:44,839
- That's from [André] Malraux.
- Yes, Malraux.
468
00:40:45,086 --> 00:40:47,281
Yes, I have respect for him.
469
00:40:47,372 --> 00:40:52,408
I think he's been somewhat despised
or considered a has-been and so on,
470
00:40:52,459 --> 00:40:54,212
but nonetheless, he did...
471
00:40:55,742 --> 00:41:01,709
when he tells all about
his father's journeys in Asia,
472
00:41:02,940 --> 00:41:07,384
who was working at the time,
I believe for...
473
00:41:10,085 --> 00:41:16,752
for a German embassy, or something,
and who realized little by little
474
00:41:17,617 --> 00:41:21,777
that revolution would never work
in China,
475
00:41:21,857 --> 00:41:26,709
and ended up committing suicide,
it's in The Walnut Trees of Altenburg.
476
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:32,381
But there are entire passages
in Malraux,
477
00:41:32,432 --> 00:41:36,957
even whole books that people don't know,
because they need to...
478
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,489
The book on Lawrence, above all.
[The Demon of the Absolute, 1946]
479
00:41:40,540 --> 00:41:45,146
Well, there's the heroic stuff,
but people don't know.
480
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,989
And if we read certain passages today,
it's striking...
481
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,865
Soon, it won't be so anymore,
but now it's still relevant.
482
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,833
It had already been said.
483
00:41:57,398 --> 00:41:59,028
Many things, in fact.
484
00:41:59,180 --> 00:42:00,496
Already been said.
485
00:42:00,688 --> 00:42:06,888
So literature was my point of view.
Literature that anticipated things,
486
00:42:06,939 --> 00:42:11,573
like Victor Serge with the Russian
revolution, that kind of thing.
487
00:42:11,624 --> 00:42:17,988
Or like Renoir in Grand Illusion,
things like that, it doesn't take hold.
488
00:42:21,022 --> 00:42:24,037
It doesn't work.
We don't pay attention to it.
489
00:42:25,437 --> 00:42:27,139
We don't believe them.
490
00:42:28,666 --> 00:42:32,507
So, what's the point of writing
and trying to be like
491
00:42:33,007 --> 00:42:37,443
Bernard-Henri Lévy or BFMTV?
We don't believe them.
492
00:42:40,178 --> 00:42:44,949
So, we could say, let's return
to something that at least amazes us,
493
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,042
since cinema was in principle
made for that.
494
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:50,614
Well, no.
495
00:42:59,186 --> 00:43:03,796
So, when making a film,
we have nothing more to lose.
496
00:43:04,067 --> 00:43:09,829
Whereas, even the most recent ones,
not so long ago,
497
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:14,500
were made for a purpose, they
had something that shouldn't be lost.
498
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:19,598
Well, the others lost it and that's
what they call winning, that's okay.
499
00:43:19,852 --> 00:43:25,646
But we... me and some old timers,
whatever you want to call us...
500
00:43:28,883 --> 00:43:31,026
like Chris Marker, who has...
501
00:43:34,891 --> 00:43:38,589
Today I say to myself:
No, there's nothing left to lose.
502
00:43:39,615 --> 00:43:42,480
What I'm trying to say
and have been for a long time,
503
00:43:42,531 --> 00:43:44,546
even if I'm more moderate now,
504
00:43:45,093 --> 00:43:48,775
THE MIDNIGHT CIRCLE [Cultural TV Show]
- is that thought
505
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,116
can be imprinted in various forms,
506
00:43:52,327 --> 00:43:57,391
one of them being cinema,
which, in my opinion, was manifestly
507
00:43:57,708 --> 00:44:00,664
—manifestly having the root
of the Latin word for hand—
508
00:44:00,715 --> 00:44:03,639
was manifestly more suited to that,
509
00:44:04,250 --> 00:44:08,617
and that it wasn't recognized
or appreciated as such. Why?
510
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,803
Someone once told me, maybe because
cinema was popular from the start,
511
00:44:14,044 --> 00:44:18,264
and the fact that it was
popular was dangerous,
512
00:44:18,804 --> 00:44:21,960
for the thought that could
express itself through it,
513
00:44:22,011 --> 00:44:26,582
since films were silent, like a child,
until cinema was 30 years old.
514
00:44:26,940 --> 00:44:32,216
And even the history of cinema
tells us that when Edison came to Paris,
515
00:44:32,267 --> 00:44:36,013
a few years after the first projection
at the Grand Café,
516
00:44:36,567 --> 00:44:39,501
he presented his prototype
of sound cinema,
517
00:44:39,553 --> 00:44:42,330
which worked almost as it works now,
518
00:44:42,681 --> 00:44:45,410
with a few flaws,
but we didn't want it.
519
00:44:45,461 --> 00:44:47,235
We preferred silent film.
520
00:44:48,430 --> 00:44:55,262
And so, for me, that's the story
of an idea that wasn't realised.
521
00:44:55,313 --> 00:44:58,035
And today... Well it's ambitious
522
00:44:58,086 --> 00:45:01,584
and I'm still making films, so...
but it seems to me...
523
00:45:01,635 --> 00:45:06,390
—that's why I brought in two people
who represent seeing,
524
00:45:07,237 --> 00:45:09,499
and three others who represent saying—
525
00:45:09,550 --> 00:45:13,143
because there was a great struggle
between what's seen and what's said,
526
00:45:13,194 --> 00:45:18,929
to put it in simple terms,
the "seen", in effect, lost.
527
00:45:20,530 --> 00:45:25,682
And for a long time I thought that
Moses had cheated, because he'd seen,
528
00:45:25,733 --> 00:45:30,022
and then he translated
and wrote the Tablets of the Law,
529
00:45:30,152 --> 00:45:31,744
and that was the source of the problem.
530
00:45:31,795 --> 00:45:34,809
Because what was seen,
even the burning bush,
531
00:45:34,944 --> 00:45:37,499
was over and done with,
it always went through a translation
532
00:45:37,558 --> 00:45:40,818
by a speaker, a news anchor,
a writer, or suchlike,
533
00:45:40,869 --> 00:45:42,602
and it's not a question of talent,
534
00:45:42,653 --> 00:45:47,272
but it's too late to fix the problem
since we're just piling up words.
535
00:45:48,355 --> 00:45:53,117
One can see it clearly, in the case of
Bosnia, to talk about a recent event:
536
00:45:53,168 --> 00:45:57,079
We argue a lot, whereas if we saw,
everyone would agree.
537
00:45:57,130 --> 00:45:59,034
But it would require us
to spend time seeing,
538
00:45:59,085 --> 00:46:03,199
in the way that surgeon uses seeing,
or a doctor, or scientists.
539
00:46:03,250 --> 00:46:07,294
Science is powerful because
seeing creates a consensus:
540
00:46:07,397 --> 00:46:10,579
If someone says:
"There's a star there",
541
00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:12,381
well, we take the telescope,
542
00:46:12,432 --> 00:46:15,179
or the microscope if he said that
about a cell or something,
543
00:46:15,230 --> 00:46:19,277
and then we say: "Listen,
you were wrong, there isn't any star".
544
00:46:19,328 --> 00:46:20,600
"Ah yes, it's true"
545
00:46:21,555 --> 00:46:24,680
Whereas if you can only use words,
right away it devolves into:
546
00:46:24,797 --> 00:46:29,011
"So you think I'm stupid, or something?"
and then it's over.
547
00:46:29,578 --> 00:46:35,318
I think that cinema was
something like that, an instrument.
548
00:46:35,343 --> 00:46:37,278
A very different instrument
from the others
549
00:46:37,329 --> 00:46:41,944
because it was itself
a visual criticism of them.
550
00:46:42,047 --> 00:46:45,031
Which then requires good film critics.
551
00:46:45,182 --> 00:46:48,269
Anyway, those are the sorts of things
I like to think about.
552
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,962
I obviously watched a lot of
interviews that you gave
553
00:46:52,013 --> 00:46:55,183
—there's a lot of them on the internet—
and there's one that I find very moving
554
00:46:55,234 --> 00:47:01,275
where you're talking about
the ability of today's filmmakers,
555
00:47:01,372 --> 00:47:03,940
who according to you would be
556
00:47:04,210 --> 00:47:07,614
for the most part
incapable of making a silent film.
557
00:47:07,698 --> 00:47:10,035
I really like that idea.
558
00:47:10,209 --> 00:47:14,667
Yes, they do it,
but it comes from the mind
559
00:47:14,718 --> 00:47:17,987
and it stops there,
it doesn't come from...
560
00:47:18,585 --> 00:47:25,923
Like Malraux said: We hear our own voice
not with our ears but with our throat.
561
00:47:25,974 --> 00:47:30,982
So we could say it's silent cinema
spoken with the throat.
562
00:47:31,128 --> 00:47:33,275
And for three quarters of Americans,
563
00:47:33,307 --> 00:47:37,434
it stops there. They almost all
speak nasally, if you will.
564
00:47:38,718 --> 00:47:44,646
Some are able to mouth something,
but few go...
565
00:47:48,441 --> 00:47:55,731
Speech doesn't rise. It's been in there
and therefore, images and speech...
566
00:47:55,782 --> 00:47:58,921
—which is the subtitle of my next film,
or something like that—
567
00:47:58,972 --> 00:48:02,762
where there's a lot of silent footage
that I'll leave silent,
568
00:48:02,813 --> 00:48:07,120
and therefore no one'll be interested.
569
00:48:07,678 --> 00:48:11,924
Which means there are a lot of images
that should stay on TV longer.
570
00:48:11,975 --> 00:48:15,652
Images, whatever they are,
atrocities or things like that,
571
00:48:15,703 --> 00:48:19,187
they should be left silent
and shown for a long time.
572
00:48:20,426 --> 00:48:22,262
Since we don't know what to say
about them,
573
00:48:22,302 --> 00:48:25,301
the usual "it's horrible",
"it's unbearable",
574
00:48:25,515 --> 00:48:30,570
they're not even shown anymore, they
say: "we have to protect the children".
575
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:36,880
THE BIG BLACKBOARD
IMAGE AND SPEECH
576
00:48:36,931 --> 00:48:40,789
EVERYTHING CHANGES, EVERYTHING'S FICTION
/ HE ONLY LOOKS AT HIS PAINTING
577
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,539
We can compare, to come back to Alvarez,
and show, well, show over time,
578
00:48:44,590 --> 00:48:49,077
it's normal to show things over time,
we mustn't show them side by side,
579
00:48:49,128 --> 00:48:55,091
because then you take on the role of an
author who wants to show it like that.
580
00:48:57,121 --> 00:49:03,363
That's why I started the film with
a chapter simply called 'Remakes'.
581
00:49:09,947 --> 00:49:17,904
And one of the main Remakes comes
simply from an ancient Greek text,
582
00:49:17,955 --> 00:49:25,008
from someone who's considered
the father of philosophy, Parmenides,
583
00:49:25,531 --> 00:49:30,622
and who speaks of being and non-being,
584
00:49:30,673 --> 00:49:35,860
which must be brought together,
585
00:49:35,911 --> 00:49:42,010
so that one must disappear
to be able to have action,
586
00:49:43,437 --> 00:49:49,958
and the image I use, after having
underlined being and non-being,
587
00:49:50,157 --> 00:49:52,767
I put in an image of Hamlet.
588
00:49:55,076 --> 00:49:58,759
And regarding that passage in
Shakespeare, I always thought
589
00:49:58,810 --> 00:50:02,317
he wasn't saying "to be or not to be",
590
00:50:02,881 --> 00:50:07,775
but saying "to be or not, to be".
591
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:14,590
There's the comma, which is Parmenides.
592
00:50:15,228 --> 00:50:17,740
He said: "to be or not",
593
00:50:18,209 --> 00:50:20,725
because it's necessary to know
that there's "non-being",
594
00:50:20,776 --> 00:50:23,307
and then "being",
for there to be action.
595
00:50:23,358 --> 00:50:26,194
Since we're on Earth.
596
00:50:28,846 --> 00:50:32,016
It's very important to have an ideal.
597
00:50:34,212 --> 00:50:36,854
Fighting the Germans...
598
00:50:36,973 --> 00:50:39,648
the French had an ideal.
599
00:50:41,791 --> 00:50:44,711
But with the Algerians they don't.
600
00:50:46,562 --> 00:50:48,404
They'll lose the war.
601
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:50,690
You think so? I don't.
602
00:50:51,074 --> 00:50:52,742
Yes, they will.
603
00:50:55,402 --> 00:50:58,197
Funny how everyone hates
the French today.
604
00:51:03,365 --> 00:51:05,534
I'm very proud to be French.
605
00:51:06,456 --> 00:51:08,958
But I'm also against nationalism.
606
00:51:09,826 --> 00:51:12,663
One defends ideas, not territories.
607
00:51:13,088 --> 00:51:16,509
I love France
because I love Joachim du Bellay...
608
00:51:16,911 --> 00:51:18,704
and Louis Aragon.
609
00:51:19,221 --> 00:51:21,832
I love Germany
because I love Beethoven.
610
00:51:22,470 --> 00:51:24,863
I don't love Barcelona
because of Spain.
611
00:51:24,914 --> 00:51:27,987
I love Spain because
a city like Barcelona exists,
612
00:51:28,038 --> 00:51:30,736
and America
because I love American cars.
613
00:51:32,038 --> 00:51:34,887
I don't like Arabs
because I don't like the desert
614
00:51:34,938 --> 00:51:36,648
or Colonel Lawrence,
615
00:51:36,801 --> 00:51:40,317
and I like the Mediterranean
and Albert Camus even less.
616
00:51:40,368 --> 00:51:42,329
No, I like Brittany...
617
00:51:43,131 --> 00:51:44,966
and I hate the south.
618
00:51:46,877 --> 00:51:49,226
The light in Brittany is very soft,
619
00:51:49,408 --> 00:51:51,189
not like in the south.
620
00:51:52,405 --> 00:51:54,400
Besides, Arabs are lazy.
621
00:51:56,046 --> 00:51:58,180
But I have nothing against them.
622
00:51:59,721 --> 00:52:03,433
Or the Chinese.
No, I'd like to ignore them.
623
00:52:04,686 --> 00:52:06,563
But it's terrible today.
624
00:52:07,665 --> 00:52:10,084
If you just calmly do nothing...
625
00:52:10,745 --> 00:52:13,414
you get hell
precisely for doing nothing.
626
00:52:14,116 --> 00:52:16,481
So we do things without conviction.
627
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,490
And it's a pity to wage war
without conviction.
628
00:52:22,212 --> 00:52:24,548
Why is the Vatican anticommunist?
629
00:52:24,923 --> 00:52:28,218
Funny guy, the pope.
They believe the same thing.
630
00:52:28,534 --> 00:52:30,577
All men are brothers.
631
00:52:32,728 --> 00:52:35,492
I'm not the brother
of a streetcar driver in Peking
632
00:52:35,543 --> 00:52:37,419
or San Francisco.
633
00:52:38,236 --> 00:52:40,572
I couldn't care less about him.
634
00:52:41,746 --> 00:52:43,414
Maybe one day...
635
00:52:45,326 --> 00:52:47,953
I'll want to know how he's doing.
636
00:52:49,558 --> 00:52:53,050
But he's not automatically
my brother or my friend...
637
00:52:53,923 --> 00:52:56,692
just because he has
eyes and ears like me.
638
00:52:57,379 --> 00:52:59,004
And vice versa.
639
00:53:00,369 --> 00:53:02,212
[Brenez] Technically, you deserted
640
00:53:02,244 --> 00:53:05,510
so as not to fight in the Algerian war,
or am I mistaken?
641
00:53:05,561 --> 00:53:10,258
At the time I was a deserter
in France, yes,
642
00:53:11,112 --> 00:53:16,056
and since I was in Switzerland, you
had to do military service at the time,
643
00:53:16,265 --> 00:53:18,744
what they called "recruit school".
644
00:53:19,674 --> 00:53:24,799
I deserted there too because
I didn't want to do recruit school,
645
00:53:25,180 --> 00:53:27,655
and I came back to France.
646
00:53:27,706 --> 00:53:34,280
After a while it was sorted out
by the administration.
647
00:53:34,362 --> 00:53:36,685
Generally, it was...
648
00:53:38,003 --> 00:53:42,146
not to do like everyone else.
That was part of it.
649
00:53:42,956 --> 00:53:46,131
The Little Soldier started
with an idea like that.
650
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:48,667
I wanted to do something
651
00:53:48,810 --> 00:53:51,594
about someone who's being tortured
and who doesn't speak,
652
00:53:51,645 --> 00:53:56,302
although he doesn't care
whether it's for the left or the right,
653
00:53:56,373 --> 00:54:00,913
or the Arabs or the French.
654
00:54:03,026 --> 00:54:09,797
At the time The Little Soldier came out,
it caused an incredible uproar in France.
655
00:54:09,848 --> 00:54:16,172
It had been banned, and moreover,
Jean-Marie Le Pen [far-right politician],
656
00:54:16,223 --> 00:54:22,076
who was a young MP then,
had demanded my expulsion from France.
657
00:54:22,453 --> 00:54:24,898
- Because of the movie?
- Because of the movie.
658
00:54:24,949 --> 00:54:26,941
- That he hadn't seen?
- Yes.
659
00:54:28,172 --> 00:54:32,311
From my point of view, I expelled myself
from France every two weeks to come here,
660
00:54:32,362 --> 00:54:36,911
and then I expelled myself
from Switzerland. It was the same.
661
00:54:37,058 --> 00:54:43,982
Then, after it came out, people said:
"Confusion, confusion, confusion!"
662
00:54:48,371 --> 00:54:51,959
Confusion? I was already, vaguely,
looking for...
663
00:54:53,659 --> 00:54:59,312
Thinking about it now, I wanted
people to just watch the image.
664
00:55:01,987 --> 00:55:05,153
Whether it's an Arab or a Frenchman,
665
00:55:06,251 --> 00:55:11,892
we look at it, just a lighter,
a chained hand, and so on,
666
00:55:11,943 --> 00:55:16,668
and the other one doesn't speak
because that was bearable too.
667
00:55:16,716 --> 00:55:18,811
And we weren't going to...
668
00:55:20,395 --> 00:55:26,399
Although... in... these images...
669
00:55:26,620 --> 00:55:32,149
An image like Pagliero tortured
with a blowtorch in Rome, Open City
670
00:55:32,363 --> 00:55:35,691
is more powerful than images of ISIS.
671
00:55:36,379 --> 00:55:38,474
And so they said: "Confusion!"
672
00:55:41,559 --> 00:55:45,244
They'd already said that
about Breathless.
673
00:55:50,626 --> 00:55:57,098
And it's true that it was
—relatively, more or less—confusing.
674
00:55:57,149 --> 00:56:00,041
Some of it self-aware
but still confusing.
675
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:04,667
They meant confusing as in, rather
than having a Frenchman tortured,
676
00:56:04,718 --> 00:56:12,703
we should have tortured the enemy
to show those bastards...
677
00:56:14,859 --> 00:56:21,437
A phrase that I like—which is mine for
once—is in Film Socialisme,
678
00:56:21,589 --> 00:56:24,736
where the television reporter
679
00:56:24,966 --> 00:56:29,243
says: "What's changed is that today
the bastards are sincere."
680
00:56:34,726 --> 00:56:37,480
Before, they knew they were bastards.
681
00:56:37,769 --> 00:56:42,459
Like when Sartre uses that word
in Nausea,
682
00:56:43,166 --> 00:56:48,364
he sees someone who's eating something
683
00:56:48,571 --> 00:56:55,444
at that café in Bouville,
and he thinks that he's a bastard.
684
00:56:58,315 --> 00:57:01,639
The Russians' victory over the Germans
685
00:57:02,124 --> 00:57:06,520
from 1941-42, and even before that...
686
00:57:07,487 --> 00:57:12,518
they didn't think
they were sincere bastards.
687
00:57:15,780 --> 00:57:22,070
A bastard wasn't sincere at the time:
that's why he was a bastard.
688
00:57:26,131 --> 00:57:30,069
So the fact of having seen those times
when I was younger,
689
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:34,100
and now with everything that's changed,
690
00:57:34,151 --> 00:57:37,469
while still remaining quite the same,
691
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:44,695
depending on the countries and...
it's very interesting...
692
00:57:45,121 --> 00:57:52,482
Yes it's interesting, if one doesn't
suffer too much from the consequences.
693
00:57:53,711 --> 00:57:57,676
If you have food or money.
694
00:58:03,546 --> 00:58:07,363
In fact, it must have also come
from my dual background,
695
00:58:07,647 --> 00:58:14,046
in France and in a weird country,
which is Switzerland.
696
00:58:14,588 --> 00:58:19,127
I constantly did things like that...
697
00:58:22,654 --> 00:58:26,821
Going back and forth, having two...
698
00:58:28,630 --> 00:58:32,466
Not having two fatherlands, but...
699
00:58:32,702 --> 00:58:38,216
I made a film which was called
Freedom and Fatherland.
700
00:58:38,599 --> 00:58:41,891
It's having one country which is
considered the official fatherland,
701
00:58:41,939 --> 00:58:44,534
and then another, which is freedom.
702
00:58:44,815 --> 00:58:48,142
Here, we live in France.
703
00:58:48,193 --> 00:58:52,520
We're in Switzerland for the landscape,
704
00:58:52,571 --> 00:58:57,092
for the forests especially,
and the walks.
705
00:58:58,841 --> 00:59:01,989
But otherwise we only read
the French newspapers,
706
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:05,671
and I even watch BFMTV for the news.
707
00:59:08,966 --> 00:59:10,902
Let's start at the beginning.
708
00:59:11,935 --> 00:59:17,223
The Chiricahua Apaches
call the world "the forest"
709
00:59:19,912 --> 00:59:21,479
Today,
710
00:59:22,011 --> 00:59:23,629
everyone is afraid.
711
00:59:25,916 --> 00:59:27,590
When I was a little girl,
712
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:29,707
I saw dogs everywhere.
713
00:59:34,233 --> 00:59:36,122
This morning is a dream.
714
00:59:36,574 --> 00:59:40,058
Everyone must think that
the dreamer is someone else.
715
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:57,640
I will say close to nothing.
I seek poverty in language.
716
01:00:01,111 --> 01:00:02,691
Poverty
717
01:00:03,483 --> 01:00:06,029
GOODBYE TO LANGUAGE
718
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:12,618
One gets the feeling that it's a film
that's totally digested every image,
719
01:00:12,803 --> 01:00:17,694
including images that are in flux,
on YouTube or elsewhere.
720
01:00:17,972 --> 01:00:21,923
Yes. And this one will
be even more like that.
721
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:27,954
Except that it'll be less
about the current world,
722
01:00:28,005 --> 01:00:30,570
since there are almost
no new images anymore...
723
01:00:30,621 --> 01:00:33,700
Whereas in the others,
I made them last longer.
724
01:00:35,339 --> 01:00:40,127
If they're very short, I slow them down
so that we have time...
725
01:00:40,633 --> 01:00:45,980
So that we have time to be bored,
or to think.
726
01:00:46,972 --> 01:00:52,469
Not really like the Lettrists did
at the time,
727
01:00:52,771 --> 01:00:57,929
who were looking to be provocative.
728
01:00:59,954 --> 01:01:04,237
At the time, the New Wave critics
729
01:01:04,293 --> 01:01:08,973
were the only ones to have said
good things about Isidore Isou's film,
730
01:01:09,024 --> 01:01:11,481
Treatise on Venom and Eternity.
731
01:01:12,727 --> 01:01:15,235
We sincerely said good things about it.
732
01:01:15,286 --> 01:01:18,016
Indeed, compared to
733
01:01:18,144 --> 01:01:21,587
films by [Jean] Delannoy
or [Claude] Autant-Lara...
734
01:01:24,197 --> 01:01:29,458
Goodbye to Language, watched in 2D,
735
01:01:30,752 --> 01:01:34,207
is strangely not as good as in 3D,
736
01:01:34,258 --> 01:01:37,328
although 3D is
nothing extraordinary.
737
01:01:37,995 --> 01:01:42,429
The kids at the start of the film play
with 3 dice [pronounced in French "3D"]
738
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:44,595
Oh, I didn't even
think about that, then.
739
01:01:44,646 --> 01:01:45,691
- Really?
- I didn't.
740
01:01:45,742 --> 01:01:48,256
Impossible! Wasn't that intentional?
741
01:01:48,363 --> 01:01:51,013
- Oh no, not at all.
- Playing with 3 dice [3D]?
742
01:01:51,064 --> 01:01:52,249
- Oh, yes?
- Yeah!
743
01:01:52,300 --> 01:01:55,560
I hadn't thought about it.
And you neither?
744
01:01:55,622 --> 01:01:58,360
[Brenez and Aragno] No, us neither.
745
01:01:59,201 --> 01:02:01,897
Yes, but that's literature.
746
01:02:10,131 --> 01:02:14,345
No, if I'd thought about it,
I wouldn't have done it.
747
01:02:14,538 --> 01:02:21,149
I can confirm this,
that when we study cinema at college,
748
01:02:21,339 --> 01:02:24,285
there's a kind of—not exactly a cliché—
749
01:02:24,336 --> 01:02:27,431
but the way the history
of the New Wave has been written,
750
01:02:27,482 --> 01:02:33,006
with the famous article by Truffaut
and the fight against French tradition,
751
01:02:34,014 --> 01:02:37,582
the New Wave rising up
against Autant-Lara,
752
01:02:37,633 --> 01:02:40,187
who's depicted as the villain
in this story.
753
01:02:40,238 --> 01:02:46,582
In retrospect, today, would you
add a little "confusion" to this story,
754
01:02:46,633 --> 01:02:50,312
or is it still relevant
and legitimate criticism?
755
01:02:50,363 --> 01:02:54,421
No, no, it seems to me
that it remains relevant.
756
01:02:54,472 --> 01:02:57,676
I remember that I said at the time
757
01:02:58,295 --> 01:03:01,476
—even when I was making
La Chinoise, for example—
758
01:03:01,527 --> 01:03:07,275
that cinema should be taught
at college.
759
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:14,284
That's the dumbest thing I've ever said.
760
01:03:15,217 --> 01:03:18,765
Because I tried once or twice,
761
01:03:18,816 --> 01:03:23,983
once after [Henri] Langlois,
or in Montreal,
762
01:03:24,316 --> 01:03:30,652
to show not movies, but reels,
10 minutes each,
763
01:03:30,851 --> 01:03:34,447
of 5 or 6 films that might be related,
or not,
764
01:03:34,498 --> 01:03:41,432
or just with the films
that the programmer had at the time.
765
01:03:41,581 --> 01:03:45,768
That's to say, again
there was this Parmenidean side,
766
01:03:45,819 --> 01:03:49,247
although unconscious.
I didn't know it at the time.
767
01:03:49,361 --> 01:03:54,812
But in all these classes and in all
these books, including yours I think,
768
01:03:57,328 --> 01:03:59,592
they don't show the images.
769
01:04:00,729 --> 01:04:03,096
It's only text.
770
01:04:04,794 --> 01:04:09,500
From this text we form images, but...
771
01:04:11,708 --> 01:04:15,435
So we don't show it, we ignore it.
772
01:04:17,024 --> 01:04:19,562
We ignore an entire life...
773
01:04:20,356 --> 01:04:25,784
of a child who nevertheless grew up,
who became old, older than we are.
774
01:04:26,037 --> 01:04:30,424
Or a girl, things like that,
we don't get to know anything about it.
775
01:04:30,475 --> 01:04:33,419
And in personal relationships,
it's the same.
776
01:04:33,973 --> 01:04:36,726
All the arguments surrounding divorces,
777
01:04:36,777 --> 01:04:41,941
people who don't stay together
long enough to
778
01:04:43,089 --> 01:04:49,520
accept a compromise, to search for
and find a kind of relative happiness,
779
01:04:49,571 --> 01:04:53,836
if there's no war or natural disasters,
that is.
780
01:04:54,195 --> 01:04:56,409
Well, for what it's worth...
781
01:04:57,402 --> 01:05:00,520
It's quite funny.
At times, it's quite funny.
782
01:06:27,719 --> 01:06:31,138
You and Coppola linked up at some point,
783
01:06:31,189 --> 01:06:34,211
you had a Hollywood adventure,
that ultimately fell through,
784
01:06:34,262 --> 01:06:36,261
and I'd like to know what happened
785
01:06:36,312 --> 01:06:39,651
with those directors who were
referred to—though not at that time—
786
01:06:39,702 --> 01:06:42,480
as New Hollywood,
who emerged at the end of the 1960s.
787
01:06:42,531 --> 01:06:47,314
How did these encounters with them go?
And why didn't it work?
788
01:06:47,766 --> 01:06:53,279
It dates back from before, because they
shared our admiration and our kinship
789
01:06:53,330 --> 01:06:56,826
with what we called B-movies,
790
01:06:56,874 --> 01:07:01,315
[Samuel] Fuller and [Elia] Kazan's
first films, some others...
791
01:07:01,366 --> 01:07:04,016
Things like that, which makes us...
792
01:07:04,183 --> 01:07:09,707
When I went to present films
in the United States,
793
01:07:10,126 --> 01:07:16,626
I talked to critics, toured, etc.
794
01:07:18,157 --> 01:07:23,699
And then, I knew a young man who...
795
01:07:24,318 --> 01:07:29,021
at the time, during the Vietnam era...
796
01:07:31,444 --> 01:07:37,295
I went there at the time
when Jane Fonda also
797
01:07:37,757 --> 01:07:42,895
was campaigning for Vietnam
with her friend at the time, Tom Hayden,
798
01:07:42,951 --> 01:07:47,194
who then became–governor?
I don't know what...
799
01:07:47,454 --> 01:07:49,920
But there were two young ones,
what were their names?
800
01:07:50,442 --> 01:07:52,008
A little crazy.
801
01:07:53,633 --> 01:07:55,300
Abbie Hoffman.
802
01:07:55,562 --> 01:07:58,635
And someone else like that.
803
01:07:58,721 --> 01:08:00,971
That whole era was very...
804
01:08:02,642 --> 01:08:08,110
yes, very much a part of America
we recognized as...
805
01:08:08,729 --> 01:08:14,529
as the real America,
or the good America.
806
01:08:14,727 --> 01:08:19,892
And then through someone
named Tom Luddy,
807
01:08:19,943 --> 01:08:24,424
who founded the Sundance festival
after...
808
01:08:24,598 --> 01:08:28,827
- [Brenez corrects him]: Telluride.
- and who was at Berkeley,
809
01:08:29,343 --> 01:08:33,001
where there was a
little cinema that ran...
810
01:08:33,052 --> 01:08:38,372
a small cinema which was called,
I think, Telegraph, on Telegraph Avenue.
811
01:08:39,967 --> 01:08:43,099
A time when I was in America
—I don't remember it at all—
812
01:08:43,150 --> 01:08:49,947
I'd gone there to film the...
or I was planning something after Cuba,
813
01:08:49,998 --> 01:08:53,518
a kind of double-portrait
of America, America-Cuba,
814
01:08:53,569 --> 01:08:57,665
which was never finished, and...
815
01:09:00,166 --> 01:09:04,533
I went to film a rally
with Angela Davis.
816
01:09:05,396 --> 01:09:11,944
And then afterwards I also filmed
the Black Panthers at their place.
817
01:09:14,166 --> 01:09:17,775
And then, via Tom Luddy,
I believe he was working at that time
818
01:09:17,826 --> 01:09:22,941
with Coppola, who took up
a small studio, his own studio,
819
01:09:22,992 --> 01:09:25,915
Zoetrope Pictures in Hollywood.
820
01:09:25,966 --> 01:09:30,714
And then he invited people,
Wim Wenders was there.
821
01:09:31,363 --> 01:09:35,771
And then he invited me too,
and for almost...
822
01:09:36,747 --> 01:09:39,552
six months, a year, I stayed.
823
01:09:39,814 --> 01:09:43,981
I had an office, I had a Ford Mustang.
824
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:48,082
And I was preparing a film
in the United States.
825
01:09:48,133 --> 01:09:55,052
It varied, and it varied,
and then it didn't... it didn't happen.
826
01:09:55,943 --> 01:09:58,954
And it was Coppola's Zoetrope Studios
who would have produced this?
827
01:09:59,005 --> 01:10:02,779
It was Zoetrope, yes.
They would have produced it, yes.
828
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:06,581
So you're there in the early '80s,
829
01:10:06,632 --> 01:10:10,441
Zoetrope is a bit... He wants to
make it into some kind of a hive for...
830
01:10:10,492 --> 01:10:14,929
- Yes, right, he tried it at one point
- It was in San Francisco. - Yes.
831
01:10:14,980 --> 01:10:20,710
And in fact he'd lose a lot of his money
with what he called electronic cinema...
832
01:10:20,761 --> 01:10:21,771
Yes.
833
01:10:22,390 --> 01:10:26,614
- Did you talk about that with him?
- No.
834
01:10:26,878 --> 01:10:28,669
Oh no, no, we weren't talking.
835
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:32,736
I also accompanied him to Las Vegas
on the set of...
836
01:10:33,134 --> 01:10:36,353
- One from the Heart?
- One from the Heart, yes, that.
837
01:10:36,404 --> 01:10:37,815
And then...
838
01:10:38,980 --> 01:10:41,108
At one point I told him...
839
01:10:41,630 --> 01:10:44,939
because I was a little like,
not an advisor but...
840
01:10:45,161 --> 01:10:48,946
a kind of friendly advisor
who had the right to say things.
841
01:10:48,997 --> 01:10:54,978
I convinced Nastassja Kinski
to cut her hair,
842
01:10:55,462 --> 01:10:58,577
because she didn't want to.
Things like that.
843
01:10:58,716 --> 01:11:04,051
And on One from the Heart, I told him
once to use a few more close-ups.
844
01:11:04,102 --> 01:11:09,613
But afterwards I felt that he didn't
want me to say things like that to him.
845
01:11:09,664 --> 01:11:13,129
But he was very generous for a while.
846
01:11:15,853 --> 01:11:19,135
{\an8}A text composed by several
writers from L'Express,
847
01:11:19,186 --> 01:11:23,234
{\an8}who had not made any contact with the
North Vietnamese delegation in France.
848
01:11:23,285 --> 01:11:24,502
{\an8}We checked that.
849
01:11:24,553 --> 01:11:26,035
{\an8}The text describes him
850
01:11:26,122 --> 01:11:30,129
{\an8}as of one of the most well-known
and most moderate American journalists.
851
01:11:30,180 --> 01:11:34,997
{\an8}It also says that the actress is a
devoted militant for peace in Vietnam.
852
01:11:35,313 --> 01:11:38,854
{\an8}But the text doesn't mention
the Vietnamese people in the photograph.
853
01:11:38,905 --> 01:11:41,601
{\an8}For example, the text does not tell us
854
01:11:41,652 --> 01:11:44,614
{\an8}that the Vietnamese who cannot be seen,
in the background,
855
01:11:44,665 --> 01:11:48,790
{\an8}is one of the least known and least
moderate of the Vietnamese people.
856
01:11:48,841 --> 01:11:52,659
{\an8}This photograph, like any photograph,
is physically mute.
857
01:11:52,823 --> 01:11:56,561
{\an8}It talks through the mouth
of the text written beneath it.
858
01:11:56,612 --> 01:12:00,121
{\an8}This text does not emphasize,
does not repeat,
859
01:12:00,181 --> 01:12:03,888
{\an8}because the photograph speaks
and says things in its own way,
860
01:12:03,939 --> 01:12:06,945
{\an8}the fact that the militant is in the
foreground
861
01:12:06,996 --> 01:12:09,289
{\an8}and Vietnam is in the background.
862
01:12:09,576 --> 01:12:13,986
{\an8}The text says that "Jane Fonda is
questioning the people of Hanoi."
863
01:12:14,328 --> 01:12:17,013
{\an8}But the magazine does not
publish the questions asked,
864
01:12:17,064 --> 01:12:19,650
{\an8}nor the answers given
by the representatives
865
01:12:19,701 --> 01:12:22,120
{\an8}of the Vietnamese people
in this photograph.
866
01:12:22,494 --> 01:12:25,708
{\an8}In fact, the text should not
describe the photograph
867
01:12:25,759 --> 01:12:29,840
{\an8}as "Jane Fonda questioning",
but as "Jane Fonda listening".
868
01:12:30,507 --> 01:12:36,716
{\an8}This much is obvious, and perhaps the
moment only lasted 1/250th of a second,
869
01:12:36,767 --> 01:12:39,375
{\an8}but that is the 1/250th
870
01:12:39,621 --> 01:12:43,040
{\an8}that has been recorded and sent
throughout to the Western world.
871
01:12:43,354 --> 01:12:47,414
{\an8}Being written this way, the
text is probably trying to tell us
872
01:12:47,465 --> 01:12:51,032
{\an8}that the photograph was taken
at random during a discussion
873
01:12:51,083 --> 01:12:55,107
{\an8}where the actress/militant was
actually questioning the people of Hanoi,
874
01:12:55,158 --> 01:12:57,875
{\an8}and therefore,
we shouldn't pay any attention
875
01:12:57,926 --> 01:13:00,600
{\an8}to the detail of the mouth being closed.
876
01:13:00,773 --> 01:13:02,842
{\an8}But we will see a little further on,
877
01:13:02,893 --> 01:13:07,432
{\an8}that it is not a question of chance,
or rather, even if it is chance,
878
01:13:07,535 --> 01:13:12,155
{\an8}the chance is then exploited according
to the logical necessity of capitalism,
879
01:13:12,206 --> 01:13:15,491
{\an8}the necessity for capital
to describe what is real
880
01:13:15,655 --> 01:13:18,949
{\an8}at the same it reveals it.
In other words,
881
01:13:19,044 --> 01:13:22,240
{\an8}the necessity of tricking the
customer about the product.
882
01:14:25,271 --> 01:14:30,975
What I like the least is
—I had a long discussion
883
01:14:31,026 --> 01:14:34,456
with [Serge] Daney and [Serge] Toubiana
[film critics] about it—
884
01:14:34,507 --> 01:14:36,040
it's the characters.
885
01:14:37,118 --> 01:14:43,926
Ultimately, I never liked the concept
of "characters" in cinema,
886
01:14:44,466 --> 01:14:47,884
because they make the whole story
about themselves.
887
01:14:48,021 --> 01:14:53,352
And then that thing you get from
time to time in silent films is missing,
888
01:14:53,717 --> 01:15:01,477
or even in Wellman,
when he made this film called...
889
01:15:01,594 --> 01:15:08,560
—I put in one or two images from it—
Wild Boys on the Road.
890
01:15:10,730 --> 01:15:14,956
He's trying to film—and sometimes he
manages to—something about society,
891
01:15:15,007 --> 01:15:17,863
where it's not about that character...
892
01:15:18,167 --> 01:15:20,367
That has completely disappeared.
893
01:15:20,940 --> 01:15:26,450
It's disappeared and this disappearance
had influence, a profound influence on
894
01:15:26,688 --> 01:15:30,829
TV and politics too.
895
01:15:30,952 --> 01:15:34,190
And songs, and everything.
896
01:15:36,507 --> 01:15:40,267
I'd even say, when we hear
897
01:15:40,434 --> 01:15:46,291
"Le Soleil et la Lune", the song by
Charles Trenet and we saw it at the time.
898
01:15:48,180 --> 01:15:52,624
Well, there's his character,
but there's also the sun and the moon.
899
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:54,850
And the singing.
900
01:15:56,461 --> 01:15:59,442
But it's not about Trenet
as a character,
901
01:15:59,493 --> 01:16:03,476
like today we hear about the character
of, I don't know, [Michel] Delpech,
902
01:16:03,527 --> 01:16:07,055
since he died not long ago, etc.
903
01:16:10,243 --> 01:16:12,692
Wellman wasn't a literary man.
904
01:16:21,393 --> 01:16:26,542
When I say literary,
I could just as well say academic.
905
01:16:26,593 --> 01:16:32,202
I could say academic,
but academic also means literary.
906
01:16:32,926 --> 01:16:35,268
I'd wager that he's actually
making his film
907
01:16:35,319 --> 01:16:37,723
a bit like [René] Clément,
that is, during the editing.
908
01:16:37,774 --> 01:16:39,647
I believe he has the entire film
in his head,
909
01:16:39,698 --> 01:16:44,185
he has his characters, he has his story,
he has his link, his cohesion.
910
01:16:44,236 --> 01:16:47,888
And I personally think that it's during
editing, once he has all these elements,
911
01:16:47,939 --> 01:16:51,400
that he'll make the true film
as he conceives it in his head,
912
01:16:51,451 --> 01:16:54,132
in his mind, and I believe also
in his heart and in his gut.
913
01:16:54,183 --> 01:16:58,469
I think I might be the most surprised
when I see the film, once it's released.
914
01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:01,324
But that's not a problem, because
he'll have made the film he wanted.
915
01:17:01,375 --> 01:17:03,717
He'll have made the film
he wanted to make.
916
01:17:03,768 --> 01:17:05,510
And when I agreed to shoot with Godard,
917
01:17:05,561 --> 01:17:08,349
it certainly wasn't just
to make another Delon film,
918
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:09,961
it was precisely to make a Godard film.
919
01:17:10,012 --> 01:17:12,755
That's what's exceptional,
what excited me, what attracted me,
920
01:17:12,806 --> 01:17:14,361
that's what was new for me.
921
01:17:14,412 --> 01:17:15,897
And to arrive, if you like, at
922
01:17:15,948 --> 01:17:19,381
—I hate the words "turning point",
"taking stock" or "change of direction"—
923
01:17:19,432 --> 01:17:21,313
but I'd say,
a certain moment in my career.
924
01:17:21,364 --> 01:17:24,521
I believe that things are in the air,
things are destined to be.
925
01:17:24,572 --> 01:17:26,537
It was important that I make this film
with Godard
926
01:17:26,588 --> 01:17:28,069
and that I make a true Godard film.
927
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:32,880
It's a kind of... pivotal moment,
I'd say, in an actor's career.
928
01:17:37,464 --> 01:17:42,023
At the time when I was doing...
I wanted to do Vivre sa vie,
929
01:17:42,074 --> 01:17:45,392
with Pierre Braunberger as producer,
930
01:17:46,780 --> 01:17:52,582
we didn't go looking for—well, there was
Anna Karina, but I mean, she wasn't...
931
01:17:52,774 --> 01:17:57,749
she wasn't a big star at the time
932
01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:03,061
—afterwards, she was—
that was how things were.
933
01:18:03,112 --> 01:18:10,349
It originated from a police report
or whatever at the time.
934
01:18:12,178 --> 01:18:14,178
And I've always done both.
935
01:18:15,041 --> 01:18:16,810
Always done both.
936
01:18:19,059 --> 01:18:25,206
Casting Alain Delon when he was
in a slump, if I dare say that.
937
01:18:25,257 --> 01:18:29,166
Johnny Hallyday too,
Eddie Constantine too.
938
01:18:30,059 --> 01:18:32,241
So I don't have... I don't...
939
01:18:34,927 --> 01:18:40,334
A demigod, or a god,
is no longer a character.
940
01:18:51,535 --> 01:18:55,040
This is something that we
find quite often with Spielberg.
941
01:18:55,091 --> 01:18:58,878
This idea that you can't adopt
two points of view at once.
942
01:18:58,929 --> 01:19:01,126
In other words,
you have to choose your side.
943
01:19:01,177 --> 01:19:04,462
And I remember an article
by [Serge] Daney on Jaws.
944
01:19:04,513 --> 01:19:06,357
A wonderful piece called "Gray Matter",
945
01:19:06,408 --> 01:19:08,706
which already identified this
in Spielberg's work,
946
01:19:08,757 --> 01:19:11,830
but also as a generally
problematic principle in cinema.
947
01:19:11,881 --> 01:19:17,676
He said you can't be both on the side
of the shark wanting to eat the victim
948
01:19:17,727 --> 01:19:19,708
—the view from below
with the shark approaching—
949
01:19:19,759 --> 01:19:23,966
and on the side of the victim,
relishing the fear she has of the shark.
950
01:19:24,017 --> 01:19:27,556
We cannot be with both
the executioner and the victim.
951
01:19:27,742 --> 01:19:29,694
You have to choose your side.
952
01:19:31,345 --> 01:19:32,898
If you'd told me that before,
953
01:19:32,949 --> 01:19:36,885
I wouldn't have asked Jean-Paul
[Battaggia] to search through Jaws.
954
01:19:36,936 --> 01:19:41,221
Because this morning,
it took me an hour to find
955
01:19:42,848 --> 01:19:48,570
a shot, part of a shot
of the shark with someone.
956
01:19:48,621 --> 01:19:51,205
Because I wanted to put it in Remake,
957
01:19:51,555 --> 01:19:56,874
with another shot, that small aviation
company, once famous in Indochina.
958
01:19:57,049 --> 01:20:03,519
They'd painted the front
of the plane like a shark's jaw.
959
01:20:03,676 --> 01:20:07,829
So there are these ideas of affiliation,
or something like that.
960
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:11,360
But it's true, I said to myself,
there's no shark there.
961
01:20:11,734 --> 01:20:15,662
[Music: Antisocial - Trust - 1980]
962
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:24,365
You work all your life
to pay for the gravedigger.
963
01:20:24,416 --> 01:20:26,865
You hide your face
while reading your newspaper.
964
01:20:26,916 --> 01:20:29,560
You walk like a robot
in the corridors of the subway.
965
01:20:29,611 --> 01:20:32,120
People don't touch you,
you have to do the work.
966
01:20:32,186 --> 01:20:34,643
You want a dialogue
without a real exchange.
967
01:20:34,694 --> 01:20:37,320
Impossible to move forward
without your bulletproof vest.
968
01:20:37,443 --> 01:20:39,680
You'd like justice to be able to see.
969
01:20:39,997 --> 01:20:43,128
Impossible to violate that woman
full of vice.
970
01:20:45,262 --> 01:20:47,600
Antisocial! You're losing your cool.
971
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:52,840
Think back to all those years
of slavery.
972
01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:59,160
Antisocial. Soon,
there will be years of torment.
973
01:21:01,153 --> 01:21:03,520
This lost time,
that you can never get back.
974
01:21:05,527 --> 01:21:09,460
And it comes back to the notion of work,
I always think,
975
01:21:09,511 --> 01:21:14,133
because people today...
there's a labor code,
976
01:21:14,315 --> 01:21:16,405
but there's no more work.
977
01:21:16,537 --> 01:21:20,387
I don't mean that there isn't, that...
978
01:21:23,065 --> 01:21:24,602
that there's only unemployment,
979
01:21:24,653 --> 01:21:27,010
but the fact that we're
talking about "employment".
980
01:21:27,690 --> 01:21:29,000
Every time they...
981
01:21:29,063 --> 01:21:31,223
As for work itself...
982
01:21:31,274 --> 01:21:34,956
you can't say that the people
at BFMTV news are working.
983
01:21:35,491 --> 01:21:37,042
They occupy themselves,
984
01:21:37,836 --> 01:21:40,233
they have an "occupation".
Even elsewhere,
985
01:21:40,302 --> 01:21:43,510
when people apply for a job,
they demand to be employed.
986
01:21:43,561 --> 01:21:46,746
And they want to be occupied.
987
01:21:46,797 --> 01:21:50,127
The problem with retirement
is that it leaves people unoccupied.
988
01:21:50,152 --> 01:21:54,450
So there are some who benefit,
but even then, it's not...
989
01:21:55,313 --> 01:21:58,496
But work, in the sense...
990
01:21:58,712 --> 01:22:04,193
in which I learned it at the time,
in tenth or eleventh grade,
991
01:22:04,267 --> 01:22:09,777
the concept of work in physics,
as defined by Joules. That's work.
992
01:22:09,887 --> 01:22:13,510
And then,
we can say that Michelangelo worked,
993
01:22:13,636 --> 01:22:17,118
or that others like him
but less well-known worked, etc.
994
01:22:17,169 --> 01:22:20,390
Even Picasso worked a lot.
995
01:22:22,090 --> 01:22:26,951
Much of it unnecessarily,
but he also worked a lot.
996
01:22:27,314 --> 01:22:29,553
But he wasn't looking for a job.
997
01:22:30,423 --> 01:22:35,289
A painter doesn't look for a job,
unless he's a house painter.
998
01:22:35,603 --> 01:22:42,905
So the house painter, we know
what he was like when he started.
999
01:22:42,956 --> 01:22:47,708
So we don't even...
when using words like that,
1000
01:22:47,874 --> 01:22:50,432
we don't make the connections,
1001
01:22:50,797 --> 01:22:53,405
which are kind of in opposition,
1002
01:22:53,456 --> 01:22:56,520
except perhaps Walter Benjamin
or others.
1003
01:22:58,140 --> 01:23:00,806
So there you have it. There's no work.
1004
01:23:00,864 --> 01:23:03,760
So it's normal
that if there are no workers,
1005
01:23:04,401 --> 01:23:07,652
if there are no jobs,
there can be no workers either.
1006
01:23:07,703 --> 01:23:12,519
If there is no work, sorry,
there can be no workers either.
1007
01:23:12,899 --> 01:23:16,873
Hence the fact that we no longer say...
1008
01:23:16,924 --> 01:23:20,296
We don't say "public sector workers"
anymore.
1009
01:23:21,154 --> 01:23:25,270
We say "employees". SNCF
[Public railroad enterprise] employees.
1010
01:23:25,321 --> 01:23:27,940
There are no more workers at SNCF.
1011
01:23:29,646 --> 01:23:34,814
And therefore the unions,
that still defend workers' rights...
1012
01:23:36,264 --> 01:23:40,183
with reason and energy
for the most part.
1013
01:23:40,443 --> 01:23:43,291
But there are no more workers.
1014
01:23:43,316 --> 01:23:49,524
So they're at a loss. They no longer
have anything to represent.
1015
01:23:49,710 --> 01:23:51,710
They represent jobs.
1016
01:23:53,448 --> 01:23:58,820
When there are layoffs, we don't say
"we're going to deprive them of work".
1017
01:23:59,804 --> 01:24:01,852
Since what they were doing
1018
01:24:04,209 --> 01:24:06,786
—the example's becoming repetitive—
1019
01:24:06,837 --> 01:24:11,408
was no more than what BFMTV anchors do
when they broadcast the news.
1020
01:24:11,689 --> 01:24:16,585
But we don't say,
"we're going to take away their work".
1021
01:24:16,691 --> 01:24:19,695
They're the ones who say that,
because it's still a sinecure,
1022
01:24:19,746 --> 01:24:26,158
that was reasonable in the 19th century.
But it's not reasonable anymore.
1023
01:24:26,209 --> 01:24:29,249
It's just another way
to fill a time slot.
1024
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:36,083
You can't say that the guy who
changes a tire in a garage is working.
1025
01:24:36,829 --> 01:24:38,679
It's a job.
1026
01:24:39,448 --> 01:24:42,503
It could be difficult,
it could be something...
1027
01:24:42,554 --> 01:24:46,440
but it's not work. The expression:
1028
01:24:48,496 --> 01:24:50,813
"Ah! That's some work!"
1029
01:24:51,017 --> 01:24:56,724
It means something else.
It means it's a work, a work of art.
1030
01:24:57,822 --> 01:25:02,852
It's something.
Half of it could be stopped.
1031
01:25:04,307 --> 01:25:08,497
Whoever makes the candies
you were talking about earlier
1032
01:25:08,548 --> 01:25:10,714
can't say that it's work.
1033
01:25:12,645 --> 01:25:15,256
It barely qualifies as employment.
1034
01:25:17,494 --> 01:25:19,233
Very often in war films,
1035
01:25:19,284 --> 01:25:24,463
when they've cleared a bunker
or something, they say "good job".
1036
01:25:32,289 --> 01:25:37,597
Without making the connection
between the poverty of that job
1037
01:25:37,716 --> 01:25:42,491
and Job in the Bible.
1038
01:25:43,304 --> 01:25:47,573
They're just putting together a collage
which amounts to nothing.
1039
01:25:48,551 --> 01:25:49,718
They don't.
1040
01:25:49,964 --> 01:25:51,520
We don't do that.
1041
01:26:00,885 --> 01:26:02,638
Cinema projected.
1042
01:26:02,689 --> 01:26:05,292
And people saw that
the world was there.
1043
01:26:05,406 --> 01:26:08,938
A world still almost without a history,
1044
01:26:09,773 --> 01:26:11,845
but a world that tells stories.
1045
01:26:11,896 --> 01:26:14,180
THE I
MAGE
1046
01:26:19,418 --> 01:26:21,711
WILL COME
1047
01:26:29,323 --> 01:26:31,484
OH!
TIME
1048
01:26:50,321 --> 01:26:52,289
OF THE
1049
01:26:57,094 --> 01:27:00,041
OH!
TIME
1050
01:27:01,258 --> 01:27:02,258
OH!
TIME
1051
01:27:03,523 --> 01:27:05,459
OF THE
1052
01:27:06,380 --> 01:27:07,380
OF THE
1053
01:27:08,942 --> 01:27:12,210
RESURRECTION
History of solitude.
1054
01:27:12,261 --> 01:27:15,382
Solitude of history.
1055
01:27:17,091 --> 01:27:21,977
Cinema projected and people
saw that the world was there.
1056
01:27:22,604 --> 01:27:28,562
A world still almost without a history,
but a world that tells stories.
1057
01:27:30,656 --> 01:27:35,516
But instead of uncertainty, in
order to establish idea and sensation,
1058
01:27:35,825 --> 01:27:39,891
the two great stories
were sex and death.
1059
01:27:47,198 --> 01:27:51,619
I don't know anything
about three quarters of the people
1060
01:27:51,873 --> 01:27:55,452
whose films you write about
in Charlie Hebdo.
1061
01:27:55,640 --> 01:27:59,240
I don't know, I'm ignorant about them.
1062
01:28:00,883 --> 01:28:03,875
Maybe these are good films.
1063
01:28:05,461 --> 01:28:08,596
But it's impossible... It's very hard...
1064
01:28:08,671 --> 01:28:10,927
It's almost impossible today
1065
01:28:11,126 --> 01:28:16,792
to have a revelation
like we used to have.
1066
01:28:17,623 --> 01:28:19,876
That aspect, which is somewhat…
1067
01:28:21,254 --> 01:28:24,432
this religious idea,
1068
01:28:24,483 --> 01:28:29,109
or a discovery,
to put it more in scientific terms.
1069
01:28:29,444 --> 01:28:31,670
Making a discovery? No.
1070
01:28:32,576 --> 01:28:35,601
Yes, that's a real problem.
1071
01:28:36,367 --> 01:28:39,253
Do you think that revelations
don't happen anymore
1072
01:28:39,304 --> 01:28:42,346
because of knowledge or age?
1073
01:28:42,397 --> 01:28:48,189
Could the coming generation
still have revelations?
1074
01:28:49,382 --> 01:28:53,382
I have doubts.
I have doubts that they will have.
1075
01:28:53,798 --> 01:28:59,006
But maybe they'll have them later,
in another way, or something.
1076
01:28:59,057 --> 01:29:03,957
I doubt it, because tourist trips
or artistic trips are more...
1077
01:29:04,340 --> 01:29:07,847
There's always truckloads of people
who go to see the Sistine Chapel
1078
01:29:07,898 --> 01:29:11,616
or visit the Prado.
So something is missing.
1079
01:29:12,418 --> 01:29:17,387
Or they go to see an exhibition
at the Grand Palais.
1080
01:29:19,728 --> 01:29:24,109
That distorts it.
1081
01:29:24,427 --> 01:29:29,768
Because there's a commemorative side
to it, there's a kind of...
1082
01:29:30,886 --> 01:29:36,299
"divine" side, like the golden calf
of art, or whatever.
1083
01:29:36,570 --> 01:29:40,419
I always thought
that a good ministry of..
1084
01:29:41,174 --> 01:29:45,173
I don't know what,
would have paintings moved around.
1085
01:29:45,866 --> 01:29:51,866
Have them stay... We'd have
a Cézanne here for at least a week.
1086
01:29:54,442 --> 01:29:59,636
Then we'd have time to see it,
to look at it, or not to look at it.
1087
01:29:59,962 --> 01:30:03,699
But standing in line for four hours
at the Pompidou Center
1088
01:30:03,755 --> 01:30:08,388
just to see the paintings all lined up,
1089
01:30:08,523 --> 01:30:13,134
like a regiment on parade like that, no.
But, alas...
1090
01:30:17,179 --> 01:30:21,463
Which is why
I've never really liked exhibitions.
1091
01:30:21,488 --> 01:30:26,363
It also comes from trips with my father,
who forced us to go
1092
01:30:26,641 --> 01:30:32,332
to Venice or elsewhere,
to look at things, and it didn't work.
1093
01:30:34,527 --> 01:30:39,910
It seems that one of the last refuges
in cinema right now is analysis.
1094
01:30:39,961 --> 01:30:44,462
Either self-analysis,
or audience analysis, or media analysis,
1095
01:30:44,513 --> 01:30:48,563
something the media can't do, they can't
look at themselves, it's impossible.
1096
01:30:48,614 --> 01:30:52,617
And you, you've been in a position
of analyst for quite some time.
1097
01:30:52,668 --> 01:30:54,552
So, having started with that,
1098
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:59,699
I tell myself that I can perhaps
free myself from it,
1099
01:30:59,750 --> 01:31:03,736
because I've done my share of that,
and perhaps I can finally do
1100
01:31:03,787 --> 01:31:06,359
what others have done,
which I didn't know how to do.
1101
01:31:06,410 --> 01:31:09,476
But having done that, I can finally...
1102
01:31:09,674 --> 01:31:13,856
maybe I can finally make a decent Zidi.
[Claude Zidi: director of comedies]
1103
01:31:13,907 --> 01:31:18,613
That's to say, you think that once
you've passed this analytical stage,
1104
01:31:19,285 --> 01:31:22,099
you'd still have to make films
like Zidi,
1105
01:31:22,150 --> 01:31:25,489
and not make films that are,
let's say, more personal?
1106
01:31:25,521 --> 01:31:29,999
That's to say you want to return
to genre, to something codified?
1107
01:31:30,050 --> 01:31:34,125
Maybe not Zidi, it'd be better to say,
I don't know, Delbert Mann or...
1108
01:31:34,176 --> 01:31:39,269
Yes, but it's...
still industrial cinema, ultimately.
1109
01:31:39,767 --> 01:31:41,458
You took a long detour...
1110
01:31:41,509 --> 01:31:44,337
Yes, but it can only be that.
I used to do a lot of
1111
01:31:44,388 --> 01:31:48,269
what in computing
would be called software.
1112
01:31:49,182 --> 01:31:53,513
I know more about programs now,
so I could switch to...
1113
01:31:54,271 --> 01:31:59,271
So, having worked a lot on this program,
I can create software differently.
1114
01:32:01,409 --> 01:32:03,369
Which means
we can create other programs,
1115
01:32:03,420 --> 01:32:07,384
which is still
what they call fundamental research,
1116
01:32:07,504 --> 01:32:08,965
but in narrative.
1117
01:32:10,249 --> 01:32:14,345
I feel closer to...
I can perhaps manage to begin
1118
01:32:16,068 --> 01:32:20,141
to read Mallarmé seriously. And then...